Uralistica

This study is only coming, so it is not available in full version, most likely the study will be realised in next year. But already now is available insight into the study, abstract. That might be interesting. I bolded most important sentences.

For about last two decades the examination of uniparentally inherited genetic marker systems revealing the variation embedded in mtDNA and Y chromosome has been the main tool in the studies of human genetic
origins. Within few recent years the analysis of the genome-wide SNP
data of individuals from different populations has started to give
promising new insights in the field of human population genetics. The
uniparentally inherited markers have shown slightly different
demographic scenarios for the maternal and paternal lineages of North
Eurasian, particularly of European Uralic-speaking populations. The
geographical location of a population has evidently been the most
important component that dictates the proportion of western and eastern
mtDNA types in the gene pool of Uralic-speakers. Thus, the palette of
maternal lineages of the Uralic-speakers resembles that of their
geographically close European or Western Siberian Indo-European and/or
Altaic-speaking neighbours, respectively. At the same time, the most
frequent North Eurasian Y chromosome type N1c, that is also a common
link between almost all Uralic-speakers, is with few exceptions rare, if
present at all, among Indo-European-speakers of Western and Southern
Europe. Here we combine genome-wide high density SNP data (650 000 SNPs,
Illumina) with uniparentally inherited mtDNA and Y-chromosome variation
of 16 Uralic-speaking populations to assess their place on the genetic
landscape of North Eurasia. By the use of principal component and
structure-like analysis on the autosomal data we show that the
proportions of western and eastern ancestry components among the
Uralic-speakers are determined mostly by geographical factors. The
westernmost populations from Europe, both Uralic- and Indo-European
speakers, are similar in their pattern of ancestry components and show
low levels (<10%) of the eastern component. Conversely, the eastern
ancestry component is dominant (60-70%) in the gene pool of the Siberian
Uralic-speakers. In general, the genome-wide analyses corroborate the
results of mtDNA analysis and do not reflect the common genetic
characteristics between western and eastern Uralic-speakers at the level
seen in case of N1c. Interestingly, among Saami from North Europe, who
are often considered as „outliers“
in genetic studies, the dominant western component is accompanied by
30% of eastern component making them more similar to Volga-Uralic
populations than to their closest neighbours.


http://www.ashg.org/cgi-bin/2010/ashg10s?abst=indo-european&sor...

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Ответы на эту тему форума

Interesting! What kind of aspirations and ideas regarding history do you see here?
Or is it any good, drawing something out of a small bit?

terveisin Kari
I think that we have to see the study, to say anything more. I suspect that in text under label "indo-europeans" are meant Russians and Balts. According to latest studies made, these are the closest genetic populations to Finns. Swedes are not so closely related to Finns, although still close.

According to previous studies, and results in commercial genetic testing company 23andMe, Saami have quite big distance from Finns and everybody else. I am astounished to see, how related to Volga populations the Saami might be. Or is it described in this study at all? Maybe this study is just about the "uralic" percentages in populations, which doesn't tell much about the degree of relatedness of populations. Well, let's see.

I myself have taken genetic test in genetic testing compny 23andMe. I have partial Khanty ancestry. I am quite distant from Finns, Balts and everybody else. Basically I am in "middle of nowhere". Maybe later I will post charts, where I am, and where are also Finnish people in Eurasian dimensions.
Thanks for posting, I see your point on Saami people. It's quite obvious that we'd find eastern relatives for them. (politically - I'm sorry to admit - we Finns have invaded the Finnish Saami land some 1000-500 yrs ago and since then. )

Yes, yes. Voipi olla... perhaps whole distinction between Europe and Asia is, from our point of view, just a way to separate Fenno-Ugrian ancestry? ...
Furthermore when politically modern era "Russians" are not regarded as europeans, on a common level.

So, is it possible to find a Euro-Asian dividing border within fennougric context?


Luhta said:
I think that we have to see the study, to say anything more. I suspect that in text under label "indo-europeans" are meant Russians and Balts. According to latest studies made, these are the closest genetic populations to Finns. Swedes are not so closely related to Finns, although still close.

According to previous studies, and results in commercial genetic testing company 23andMe, Saami have quite big distance from Finns and everybody else. I am astounished to see, how related to Volga populations the Saami might be. Or is it described in this study at all? Maybe this study is just about the "uralic" percentages in populations, which doesn't tell much about the degree of relatedness of populations. Well, let's see.

I myself have taken genetic test in genetic testing compny 23andMe. I have partial Khanty ancestry. I am quite distant from Finns, Balts and everybody else. Basically I am in "middle of nowhere". Maybe later I will post charts, where I am, and where are also Finnish people in Eurasian dimensions.
My mtDNA haplogroup is T2d, and it comes from Khanty side.

Furthermore when politically modern era "Russians" are not regarded as europeans, on a common level.

That's a very bad thing, when politic issues are mixed with culture, genetics etc. Russians culturally and in genetic level are Europeans. Besides that, exactly Northern Russians seem to be the closest relatives to Finns, not Swedes, and not even really Estonians.

So, is it possible to find a Euro-Asian dividing border within fennougric context?

Very hard to say. I have feeling that all Finno-Ugric ethnicities have both European and Asian admixture. Where European part usually dominates though.

Where is genetic border between "European" and "Asian"? I have feeling that term "European" is excluding, while "Asian" is more including. According to American experience, there is so called "drop rule" in regards to "European". F.e. a mixed mulatto is not "European". A quadroon (3/4 European) is still generally regarded as "non-European". When a person with "black" blood is start being "European"? Maybe when he starts to look as such? Like he is already at least 85-90% "European" by blood? Similar things could be applied to Eurasian ancestry, although I think that for Eurasian mixes it is easier to pass under "European" label. Because "Asians" are genetically closer to "Europeans". So maybe as "European" can pass already such Eurasian mixes who are like 80-85% European (Western Eurasian) by blood?

I am myself 78% "European" and 22% "Asian" in my ancestry painting. So I am borderline European. But I still look somewhat exotic in Finland, and totally out of place in Estonia or Latvia (the people there even call me as "Chinese" or "Japanese"). The Russian people too often wonder about my looks.

So who am I? European? Not European?

The borderline between "Europeans" and "Asians" is more difficult to find out, that one can imagine. And especially in such multi-culti region as Volga and Ural region.
Thanks, Helena. For genetics facts! I have read something, but don't remember much of Saami genotye.

It IS difficult to combine genetic and linguistic evidence to see the past.
I don't support the idea of eastern-western division in fenno-ugrians, just set forthe the question here.
We Finns have earlier been seen as "mongolic" people, which nowadays sounds strange. But our genes are not so western or eastern, rather an even mix.
Also that we are not the "First People" of Finland, that's obvious.
And also any language map shows that uralic languages have been original. The waves of flood are there to be seen.

I personally don't know of my genes. But they seem to work all right.

Hey, was it that Slavonics have inherited our genes?? And not vice versa? .. I read some place
(sorry, I'll thus quit this thread since im not any expert)

Helena said:
T mtDNA comes from Mesopotamia (Wikipedia). Mesopotamia was located in Asia. Today Iraq and Syria are located in this area.
Luhta, do you have Khanty ancestry? Finns are genetically closer to eastern relatives (Finno-Ugrics/Samoyed people), than Samis are. Even Icelanders and Danes are genetically closer to Samoyed people. Samis don't have much eastern genes, it's very interesting..
Indo-Europeans (their languages) come from Central Asia, so they are Asians? And what does it mean if someone is an Asian? Chinese or Arab? Language? Residence? Or what?

T2
Thank you again, Helena! It's good to have someone updating us on genetics. It is very important to use any means avilable to find out about the past of people and humanity. Linguistic theories (which are, or were, the most familiar part for me) on proto-languages and comparative methods work to some extent but further methods are always welcome to give support. And rival theories, too,

I'm glad no to be greek!
I also value high the idea of northeuropean prehistoric, matriarchal, oral culture, suggested for the hunter-gatherers, possibly speaking some form of FU-proto.
I also admire gratly Kalevi Wiik and his efforts to shed the light on things.

Ride on! All the best! (Sorry to use English here)! t.kari
Luhta, do you have Khanty ancestry?

Yes, my mother is Khanty.

Finns are genetically closer to eastern relatives (Finno-Ugrics/Samoyed people), than Samis are. Even Icelanders and Danes are genetically closer to Samoyed people. Samis don't have much eastern genes, it's very interesting..

To which study do you refer to? Sounds like outdated study. Modern studies show that Saami are more to east than Finns in genetic charts, so Saami must be closer to eastern people. Also I have seen ancestry painting in Saami and Finnish people profiles. Saami are clearly with more eastern influences. Finns in 23andMe show no more than 2% of "Asian" (genetically saying - Eastern Eurasian) genes in ancestry painting (except people with roots from Lapland - they have up to 4% of "Asian" genes). Saami people have bigger percentage of "Asian" genes than Finns have. I have one half-Saami man from Norway among my contacts. His ancestry painting shows 4% "Asian" genes. His full-blooded Saami parent must have bigger Asian percentage, but he isn't tested.
Helena, have you heard about phenomenon called "genetic drift"? (in Finnish language "Geneettinen ajautuminen")

"Genetic drift or allelic drift is the change in the frequency of a gene variant (allele) in a population due to random sampling." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift

In short briefing - Saami initially could have had more other haplogroups. F.e. 1000 years ago Saami could have had mainly haplogroups H, T or J (just example, it is only my imagination), and only few people had haplogroups U and V. But due genetic drift nowdays majority of Saami have exactly haplogroups U and V, even if they were not dominating in the beginning (maybe). So haplogroups don't tell us everything about origins.

Please look at principles of genetic drift in this animation: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Random_sampling_...

Remember also, that haplogroups are very small part of genome. And mtDNA haplogroup is descended only from one grandparent out of four - mother's mother. MtDNA haplogroup doesn't allow for you to know other your three grandparents lineages. Nor also your real origins.

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