Orthodox confession can not be the part of Finno-Ugric Renaissance?

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Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Luhta Апрель 25, 2011 в 1:31pm

Well, maybe an example of Latvian and Lithuanian, and other European, renaissance will help. Lithuanian renaissance in 19th century was connected to Catholic church, but Latvian renaissance was not so much connected to church (Latvians were/are Lutherans). Furthermore, Poles, who were Catholics, had their identity tied to Catholic church, just like in case of Lithuanians. But Estonians and Finns, who were Lutherans, didn't have their identities much  connected to church, similarly to case of Latvians. Why such difference? As you see, there is some differences along the lines of Lutheran and Catholic churches. But I think it°s not the only explanation. There's also some history behind. But it's long story. In brief, Catholic church was main place, where books in Polish or Lithuanian languages were printed and published, the religiousity of Catholic people also was more deep, so they connected themselves to church more than the "more shallow" Lutherans. Catholic church helped to preserve and develop national languages. In case of Lutheran church situation was different. Lutheran church helped to develop network of schools, who were less religious than Catholic schools were. And books were often printed not in churches, but in common publishers. Well, system was different. In overall Lutheran church wasn't so involved into national awakening like Catholic church was.

 

So what could we say about Orthodox church? Has it been ever involved into renaissance of Russian Finno-Ugric ethnicities, ever helped to preserve or develop their languages etc.? Is Orthodox church closely connected to identities of ethnicities? If no, then I can say that role of Orthodox church could be more like role of Lutheran, than that of Catholic church.

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Numulunj pilgä Апрель 25, 2011 в 10:56pm

I'm a Lutheran. I believe FU renaissance has nothing in common with Orthodox church. I know only Chuvashs seem to adopt Orthodoxity deeply but they failed to establish Chuvash Orthodox Autocephalic church with its own language and canonic divertions. Most Moksha believers anyway still stick to Orthodox tradition (forum polls and similar voting).

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Артур Апрель 26, 2011 в 2:04am

It depends on nations and decisions of individuals of finno-ugric nations. Renaissance is possible within Orthodox church and also possible outside Russian Orthodox church. Ortem, you should have a deep attention and study the Renaissaince of national movements of former Austrian-Hungarian nations, and also of former Russian Empire's nations - Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian... national movements of 19 and 20 th centuries.

Lithuanians had bad polish influence, and elite spoke in Polish. Catholic Church in Lithuania held mass in polish language. BUT. Some educated Lithuanian sons and priests of polonised Catholic Church in Lithuania started to translate Bible in to Lithuanian language and tried to use it in churches. As a result today - the process was succesfull and today everything is in Lithuanian language in Catholic churches.

So, - some Lithuanian priests of polonised Catholic Church started the Renaissance of Lithuanian culture. The priests started this process!

Could it happen in finno-ugric case and within Russian Orthodox church? It could happen if Russian Orthodox Church's priests of udmurtian origin would initiate the reform of Orthodox church. Masses should held in Udmurtian language. Or the only way is to create the Udmurtian Orthodox Church. Or join other confessions.

I think the result of Russian Orthodox church practice - is assimilation of local nations.
Does any priest of Russian orthodox church help to Uralistica or todays finnougric movement? No, they dont help.

So, today, finno-ugric movement is in cross with Russian Orth. church. Because if you go to pray in church of Russian Orthodox Church - that mean - you are Russian, and belong to Russian community.

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Артур Апрель 26, 2011 в 2:45am

We should ask God to bless our ways and movement.

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Kari Blomster Июнь 11, 2012 в 11:47am

Hi, all. I find this religious question to be very good take on FU-Renaissance, FU-identity and FU-ethnicity and I like to read your views on eg catholic Lithuania.

Well. In modern Finland the main creeds are Lutheran and 1% Orthodox, under Ecumenical Patriarchete of Constantinople, autonomous local church. Departed from Moscva along Finland's national independence (1917) and new religious laws ruled in early 1920's. 

To shed light on Finnish history in this fu-respect: In Finland Luther (via Mikael Agricola from Turku) gave us Finnish language in writing in 16th century, along with the Bible translation. Lutherans are more pietic and transcendent on folk traditions, whereas Orthodox church here has assimilated Carelian folk beliefs in a way that has been seen in Purist Lutheran history, in it's most strict ideas, even as PAGANISM (!), in some occasions.  

Finnish orths are internationally famous of Ecumenism, peaceful inter-creed relations and eg. developing Sami church language. Of course this stems partly from the fact that Orthodox church is a minority in Finland, thus not deeply entangled in state politics. 

So, in short: As long as Russian Orthodox Church is regarded as Panslavic and not in peace and begged and forgived her grim past of hundreds of years, the tension stays. I hope Renaissance finds safe and solid ground. Maybe only step by step, because nowadays main discussed item is the reconciliation process of last century's State-Communist Ideology which caused terrible, violent damage and devastation to both churches AND ethnicities. 

Sometimes I ironically, as a lingvistically trained person, see ancient saints Kyrillos and Methodios (cyrillics) the MAIN obstacles of information flow and break-away from the status quo. If we had same vocabulary... :) 

Our Renaissance was National-Romantic Movement of 19th century and our Art history Golden Era grew from eg. publication of national epic "full" Kalevala 1850's and resulted in jugend-style national art in 1900's first decade. 

Now it's all past and gone and we are modernisized, we have had our fair share of Western traditions. Atlanto-uralic.:) 

God's blessing to the movement, Artur, of course.. Terribly worst scenario would be the fate of Tsetsenia, Religion-motivated Guerilla War... Terrible even as a thought!!! 

Re Orthodox: Folk language promoting canonical churches are in Finland, in Estonia, where else? Parishes, metropolitans? 

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Kari Blomster Июнь 11, 2012 в 12:48pm

If you say Ethnicity = Paganism, you create Marginalization. - this is a big question. Works the same way as Communist idea of the "Church of Babushkii". 

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Кувакань Азор Июнь 11, 2012 в 2:19pm

We should trust in other confession by reason of the high level of assimilation. This process is closely connected with orthodox church. If we consider the Caucasian and Turkic nations, they have the protection from the assimilation through Islam religion. As for me, it's more important to trust honestly, by soul, and the confession is less important. I am baptised,Orthodox. I was baptised, when I was 4 or 5 years old.

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Артур Июнь 11, 2012 в 2:56pm

It is a term called ''National Church" - that mean christian church of a nation. Many have them, but for ex., neither Estonia, neither Finland, neither Latvia, neither Lithuania does not have them. There is Church of England and ec. Lithuanian Catholics belongs to Roman Catholic church - so no National Church, similar in Latvia too. Not sure about Hungary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_church

In Russia as I see there is only Russian Orthodox church - so, there is no local Udmurtian or other churches.

Yes, I agree, that if people should be able to have mass in their language - would be great. But as I see - Russian Orthodox church is in power today and related with government, because church and government is not separated as it could be elsewere. Russian church and Russian government helps each other. So, - no mass in local languages there!

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Kari Blomster Июнь 11, 2012 в 3:01pm

In Finland also the TrueFinn nationalistics talk bad and foul words of so-called multiculturalism. But diversity it is the only way to live together. High-church-islam is of course protective but it should loosen up likewise. The cultural connections on higher and especially on LOWER, EVERYDAY levels are the solution to let creeds live together. Of course this is a impossible problem to solve on paper, concrete and considerate actions taken are the most important level. We in Finland for example write Carelian in latin alphabet, russians do it in kyrillic, as far as i know. Kyrillic came to use there in the late 1930's. http://reocities.com/athens/4280/lisuri8.html#8.2 link just to give you an idea and glimpse to it. 

If we can resist the temptation and refuse to Demonize other, different believers, we would have taken a big step ahead. Getting Orthodox and Islamic worlds to everyday peace would give a strong hand to FU-Renaissance too. 

Mmm, and, yes. I was babtized Lutheran as a small baby, in cradle, later I chose myself to get charismated to join The Holy Orthodox Church around 24 yrs old. 

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Кувакань Азор Июнь 11, 2012 в 3:10pm

Does the Lutheran church can help the Finno-Ugric nations to save the national identity?

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Артур Июнь 11, 2012 в 3:30pm

Otherwise, prechristian believs also can help to imunise identification of belonging to ethnical group. So if speaking only about how to secure that - not only christian faith can help. Because some will say - christianisation is same as rusification, so restoration of prechristian believs someone can say is as a solutution. Anyway even some elements of that can help and that will not go against christian believs.

Постоянная ссылка Ответил(а) Kari Blomster Июнь 11, 2012 в 3:48pm

Uh. You have interersting ideas. I do not know. We must discuss this, perhaps here. 

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